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< Archive ~ Katie Dear (aka Silver Dagger) |
BanjoAndy |
Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:40 pm |
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Tearin' it Down
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 194
Location: Clifton Park NY
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Been playing this one alot lately. Nothing better than a good song about love gone wrong. I thought that one of the Louvin Brothers wrote this one but was just looking in the liner notes to a cd and saw that it's credited to a W. Bolick. Anyone have any idea who s/he is?
Also anybody know of other bands that have recorded this one? I know the Hunger Mountain Boys do a real good job with it on thier newest album. |
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cfMC |
Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 9:12 pm |
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Old Crow
Joined: 30 Oct 2005
Posts: 412
Location: SF CA USA
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This is my favorite of their slower numbers! |
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Mr Skjellyfetti |
Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 12:02 pm |
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Raisin' a Ruckus
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 93
Location: Boone
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bob dylan played it and it's on live 1964 |
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kevinoakhill |
Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 6:43 am |
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Raisin' a Ruckus
Joined: 03 Apr 2005
Posts: 59
Location: London
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Gillian Welch and David Rawlings have done this song live as well. As for W Bolick, I assume this is Bill Bolick from the Blue Sky Boys, a bluegrass band (set of brothers really, Bill and Earl Bolick) who were best known in the late 50s or early 60s I would guess. I think the song is traditional though, I don't think he wrote it, so would think that it was simply his arrangement of the song which was used. |
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BanjoAndy |
Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 1:31 pm |
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Tearin' it Down
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 194
Location: Clifton Park NY
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Just found another good version of this tune on The Sidemen album that they sell at the Station Inn. |
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chrism |
Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 8:59 pm |
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Lil' Birdie
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 6
Location: under an oak tree
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check out the lonesome sisters with riley baugus, they do a tremendous job with it. also i think the chieftains have played it. |
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willierubio |
Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 2:22 pm |
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Lil' Birdie
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 3
Location: northern california
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I was introduced to this song by a Dave Van Ronk record. Joan Baez also did it but in a very British-Isles-type version - how it might have sounded before it hit Appalachia. It's definitely a traditional song rather and whoever it was who got credited for it probably just copyrighted it or arranged it, as per A.P. Carter and all the Carter Family stuff. |
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greasy-coat |
Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 2:42 pm |
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Old Crow
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 619
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Yea, until this version I'd always seen the tune titled "Silver Dagger".
What about that ole Dave Van Ronk! MAN! Sister Kate?
Well I wish that I could shimmy like my sister Kate
She shakes it just like jelly on a plate
Momma wanted to know last night
"Why was all the fellas treatin Katie so nice" |
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Leaf Liar |
Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 9:05 pm |
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Raisin' a Ruckus
Joined: 19 Oct 2005
Posts: 133
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Yeah, isn't Dave Van Ronk great!
Sister Kate! yeah thats a great old ragtime tune.
Do you have his Jug band album: The Ragtime Jug Stompers...great stuff...not availiable on CD that I know of (unless it's an import). I have the LP...It's Great stuff.. |
Last edited by Leaf Liar on Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:29 am; edited 1 time in total |
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CatieWee |
Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 3:27 am |
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Lil' Birdie
Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 33
Location: Norfolk - UK
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cool...now I know who did siter kate originally, as I only just heard it through the dittybops (who are pretty cool!) it means now that I can try and check out some other stuff! yay! You guys never fail to teach me something new! |
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greasy-coat |
Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 8:34 am |
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Old Crow
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 619
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Leaf, I don't have nor have I heard it. Sounds interesting. |
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Leaf Liar |
Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:41 am |
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Raisin' a Ruckus
Joined: 19 Oct 2005
Posts: 133
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CatieWee wrote: cool...now I know who did siter kate originally, as I only just heard it through the dittybops (who are pretty cool!) it means now that I can try and check out some other stuff! yay! You guys never fail to teach me something new!
Van Ronk wasn't the first to do Sister Kate...I'm not sure who wrote it, but I have always known Fats Waller's version, which was recorded sometime in the mid-twenties. It's a pretty standard ragtime tune. I'l have to look into the Ditty Bops...never heard of them. |
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brodank |
Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:42 am |
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Guest
Joined: 13 Dec 2004
Posts: 1656
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i would be so sure about your references on the origin of that song
I "remember" Ketch talkin about it when they played at The Station Inn 02-08-01 ....it was the 3rd set, 5th song (remember rodge?)
Ketch said he read the history of this song when he was looking into the copyright laws of the song. He stated the the song comes from the 16th century and it is mixed with an american indian ballad. it is the story of the night visit which you did after you went courting.
anyway that is what Ketch said at that time.....you know how he likes to put people on though |
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therodge |
Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:02 pm |
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*Law Dog*
Joined: 17 Oct 2004
Posts: 6602
Location: Nashville, Tennessee
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brodank wrote: i would be so sure about your references on the origin of that song
I "remember" Ketch talkin about it when they played at The Station Inn 02-08-01 ....it was the 3rd set, 5th song (remember rodge?)
Yea man, Dose were da days! Helluva night... Back when me, you, and ole Pookie used to run the roads. Good times. |
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krazykarl |
Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 3:07 pm |
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Old Crow
Joined: 12 Dec 2004
Posts: 516
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hey bro how's life as a THOUSANDAIRE?!? |
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brodank |
Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 4:35 pm |
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Guest
Joined: 13 Dec 2004
Posts: 1656
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krazykarl wrote: hey bro how's life as a THOUSANDAIRE?!?
A-FREEKING-MAZING |
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greasy-coat |
Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 8:45 am |
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Old Crow
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 619
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I don't think anyone's stated the origin of Silver Dagger or Katie Dear, etc. . . just naming versions and players that have done it.
I would like to dig deeper into Sister KAte actually. Leaf let me know what you find. |
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grateful |
Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:15 pm |
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Old Crow
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 473
Location: Sarnia, Ontario Canada
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greta_mae |
Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 5:12 pm |
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Lil' Birdie
Joined: 18 Jun 2005
Posts: 17
Location: Ann Arbor, Mi / Asheville, NC
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from "rural roots of bluegrass" by wayne erbsen:
"the original ballad can be traced back to england in the early 19th century. the first recording was on june 9, 1926, by kelly harrell who called it "oh molly dear, go ask your mother." the callahan brothers' january 3, 1934 recording was so popular that it was released on at least seven different record labels." |
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sadler420 |
Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:40 am |
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Lil' Birdie
Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 6
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It is in an old ozark music songbook my mom has that dates back to the late 1800s. |
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GumboStu |
Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 8:05 am |
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*Irish Stew*
Joined: 03 Oct 2007
Posts: 3666
Location: Joe's Cornfield
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Links to background for Katie Dear.
Mudcat.org citing the Traditional Ballad Index which traces it to 1904
the English/Baez version goes thusly:
SILVER DAGGER
Don't sing lovesongs, you'll wake my mother
She's sleeping here, right by my side
And in her right hand, a silver dagger
She says that I can't be your bride
All men are false, says my mother
They tell you wicked, loving lies
The very next evening, they'll court another
Leave you alone to pine and sigh
My daddy is a handsome devil
He's got a chain five miles long
From every link a heart does dangle
Of some fair maid he's loved and wronged
Go court another tender maiden
And hope that she will be your wife
For I've been warned and I've decided
To sleep alone all of my life |
_________________ Walkin' the line between faith and fear. |
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pittsyltucky |
Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 8:45 pm |
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*Johnny*
Joined: 15 Sep 2006
Posts: 4268
Location: Pigg River District, Pittsylvania County, Virginia
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The Louvin Brothers' version is pretty much the same as the one on Eutaw -- except Katie Dear's papa has a golden dagger...
here's a link to a "Dead Discography" page that has a ?comprehensive? listing of the songs' recordings -- it does not, however, include the OCMS |
_________________ "Johnny get your gun, we'll have a little fun." |
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kg |
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 6:04 am |
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*Data Miner*
Joined: 30 Jun 2007
Posts: 3427
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYZiNMVpbMM
Joan Baez performing "Silver Dagger." (Just posted today.) |
_________________ Even though you can't expect to defeat the absurdity of the world, you must make that attempt. That's morality, that's religion. That's art. That's life. --Phil Ochs |
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lbrod |
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:00 pm |
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*Bloodshot Hot Rod*
Joined: 02 Jul 2008
Posts: 1358
Location: Beneath Pacheco Pass
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The Data Miner continues to dig up gems. That is a very young Joan in this one. |
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kg |
Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:16 am |
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*Data Miner*
Joined: 30 Jun 2007
Posts: 3427
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I'd marry her in a minute! |
_________________ Even though you can't expect to defeat the absurdity of the world, you must make that attempt. That's morality, that's religion. That's art. That's life. --Phil Ochs |
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frogbotfan |
Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:40 am |
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Raisin' a Ruckus
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 59
Location: North Carolina
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The OCMS version is very close to the arrangement recorded by
Ian and Silvia back in the 1960s. Even the harmonies are about the same.
fbf |
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frogbotfan |
Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:22 am |
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Raisin' a Ruckus
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 59
Location: North Carolina
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frogbotfan wrote: The OCMS version is very close to the arrangement recorded by
Ian and Silvia back in the 1960s. Even the harmonies are about the same.
fbf
Went back and listened to the Ian and Sylvia version. They take it MUCH faster--about 103 beats per minute. The OCMS version is, IMO, just too slow at 73-75 bpm, esp. for a song with some many verses. (I note that the tempo varies somewhat. In playing guitar I've been working with a metronome trying to be more consistent in my tempos. But musicians don't usually play like clockwork (thank goodness) and tempos usually vary a bit over the course of a song.)
There are slight variations in the words as well. Golden dagger vs. silver dagger.
With more instruments to work with, OCMS creates a more interesting sound palette. Fiddle, harp or button accordian.
The bass in the OCMS is called an "upright doghouse bull fiddle". What is this? Just a humorous way of referring to an upright bass?
fbf |
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kg |
Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:31 am |
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*Data Miner*
Joined: 30 Jun 2007
Posts: 3427
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I suspect they are being tongue-in-cheek in naming the double bass, though they could have added bunkhouse to the series and who-knows-what-else! |
_________________ Even though you can't expect to defeat the absurdity of the world, you must make that attempt. That's morality, that's religion. That's art. That's life. --Phil Ochs |
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