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< Archive ~ orgins of trials and troubles ???? |
dereck |
Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:01 pm |
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Lil' Birdie
Joined: 10 Jun 2006
Posts: 37
Location: Rhode Island
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i was listening to herny thomas the other day and notice that in his song arkansas verse 3 is the same as verse 1 in trials & troubles i mean word for word the same now henry thomas made his recording in the late 20's and oldcrow wrote theirs only a coupple of years ago but in the ocms linernotes they do not give any credit to mr thomas instead they wrote that secor and watson wrote the song what gives anyone know why? or have so insight on this |
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foxontherun |
Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:52 pm |
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*Call Me Foxxxy If'n Ya Nasty*
Joined: 18 Dec 2004
Posts: 1079
Location: Lynchburg, VA USA
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ya know i forget the ins and outs of this but im sure we've talked about this before. it is an interesting point. i've never had the opprotunity to here the other persons version BUT the way i see it, its kind of like bob dylan playing someone elses song and borrowing the music and some of the lyrics and changing some of it too. and bob dylan is only one person to do this. ya know, like, well i know there are more artists that do this. (grateful dead!) so i think they can claim ownership number one since its so much newer and number two, since they did write some of it. hell, they dont write dylan in the liner notes for wagon wheel!
Edit: sorry i never saw the dylan credit in there!! haha, not much of a mod eh? |
Last edited by foxontherun on Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:29 am; edited 1 time in total _________________ The Fox |
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dereck |
Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:26 am |
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Lil' Birdie
Joined: 10 Jun 2006
Posts: 37
Location: Rhode Island
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i see your point fox i was just wondering if anyone else has caught that one im sure it was not done with any malice and im glad there keeping the old stuff alive with in there music they should just give cerdit to were it comes from so others can find the old stuff too thats all.. and for the most part they do tell were it's from and by the way they do write in dylan in on the linernotes on ocms |
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pittsyltucky |
Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 3:01 am |
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*Johnny*
Joined: 15 Sep 2006
Posts: 4268
Location: Pigg River District, Pittsylvania County, Virginia
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Most of these tunes they do from the 20's and 30's are now in the public domain, therefore are wide open to someone else nabbing them and reworking them. The Dead did the same, as fox mentioned. Most of the time they'd put "traditional" in their credits. Besides, this Mr. Thomas likely "stole" it from someone way back when as well, just like A.P. Carter did with a slew of tunes that we all know as "Carter Family" songs. |
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Kitty |
Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 6:43 am |
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*Mrs. Kitty*
Joined: 23 Oct 2006
Posts: 2344
Location: Durham, NC
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I agree with Pittsyltucky. Many of these "traditional" tunes have been worked and overworked. Often the original writer or artist is not known, and no one artist lays claim to those old timey tunes. |
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JugBlowr |
Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 7:40 am |
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Lil' Birdie
Joined: 23 Feb 2007
Posts: 8
Location: Star City, VA
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There is no way to know if Henry Thomas wrote the tune or not (though I like his energetic version more that Old Crow's more laid back approach), but the melody obviously existed long before OCMS. I think the proper thing to do is to claim copyright on an arrangement w/ additional lyrics of a traditional tune. The reason for not doing so is simple: money. Royalties on arrangements are roughly half of what they are on fully copyrighted compositions. Perhaps someone outside the band made the decision to credit it the way they did, which, in my opinion, is ignoring the origin of the song. I have always appreciated The Rolling Stones for making sure that guys like Fred McDowell & Robert Wilkins received their fair share of royalties. |
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dereck |
Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 1:44 pm |
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Lil' Birdie
Joined: 10 Jun 2006
Posts: 37
Location: Rhode Island
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JugBlowr wrote: There is no way to know if Henry Thomas wrote the tune or not (though I like his energetic version more that Old Crow's more laid back approach), but the melody obviously existed long before OCMS. I think the proper thing to do is to claim copyright on an arrangement w/ additional lyrics of a traditional tune. The reason for not doing so is simple: money. Royalties on arrangements are roughly half of what they are on fully copyrighted compositions. Perhaps someone outside the band made the decision to credit it the way they did, which, in my opinion, is ignoring the origin of the song. I have always appreciated The Rolling Stones for making sure that guys like Fred McDowell & Robert Wilkins received their fair share of royalties.
amen brother |
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pittsyltucky |
Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 10:01 am |
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*Johnny*
Joined: 15 Sep 2006
Posts: 4268
Location: Pigg River District, Pittsylvania County, Virginia
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Don't think for a minute that the Stones gave them their "fair share" out of any graciousness on their part -- I don't know about McDowell, but Wilkins was still kickin' around in the sixties, so his copyrights were probably still active. I mean, all those delta/memphis blues boys ripped their stuff off from others, too. So just because Wilkins was getting his "fair share", it doesn't mean the poor ol' feller who picked cotton all day and played on his porch at night (and might himself have even ripped the song from someone else!) ever saw a dime... |
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JugBlowr |
Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 3:03 pm |
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Lil' Birdie
Joined: 23 Feb 2007
Posts: 8
Location: Star City, VA
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Quote: Don't think for a minute that the Stones gave them their "fair share" out of any graciousness on their part -- I don't know about McDowell, but Wilkins was still kickin' around in the sixties, so his copyrights were probably still active. I mean, all those delta/memphis blues boys ripped their stuff off from others, too. So just because Wilkins was getting his "fair share", it doesn't mean the poor ol' feller who picked cotton all day and played on his porch at night (and might himself have even ripped the song from someone else!) ever saw a dime...
Yeah, Fred was still kicking in the 60s & 70s. After he got his money from You Got To Move, he went out & bought a Gretsch Hollow Body. He smoked that thing, too.
As for Wilkins, I believe he was not credited for Prodigal Son on the Beggar's Banquet credits, & the Stones were quite gracious in seeing to it that he got paid.
Not to say that some other, ahem, less than gracious things haven't happened in that band over the years...
I'll close by saying: check out Robert Wilkins. His stuff sounds simple when you hear it, until you try and play it. He had a lot going on in his music.
AND the Stones' A Bigger Bang is a damn good rock record. I know everyone is into hating on those guys now, but they managed to get their mojo back for the last album, in my opinion. |
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pittsyltucky |
Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 2:02 pm |
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*Johnny*
Joined: 15 Sep 2006
Posts: 4268
Location: Pigg River District, Pittsylvania County, Virginia
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I will agree with ya that Robert Wilkins rocks... My faves are "Losin' Out Blues", "Old Jim Canan's", and "That's No Way To Get Along".
If youput an ear into that stuff, he had a LOT going on pickin' that guitar - nothing simple about it!! |
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Nik |
Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:45 pm |
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Lil' Birdie
Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 4
Location: York, England
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I think that OCMS's version of Trials and Troubles is fairly similar to Henry Thomas's Arkansas and seems to remain faithful to the tune & lyrics of the origional, I'd doubt that Henry Thomas wrote it as he was a proffessional musician who most likely picked it up along the way in his carear and possibly developed it, I would say that it is more likely a traditional. |
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DeanRogers |
Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:15 am |
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Charlie
Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 896
Location: Ocean City, MD
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GumboStu |
Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:39 am |
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*Irish Stew*
Joined: 03 Oct 2007
Posts: 3666
Location: Joe's Cornfield
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