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<  Archive  ~  Katie Dear (aka Silver Dagger)

BanjoAndy
Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:40 pm Reply with quote
Tearin' it Down Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 193 Location: Clifton Park NY
Been playing this one alot lately. Nothing better than a good song about love gone wrong. I thought that one of the Louvin Brothers wrote this one but was just looking in the liner notes to a cd and saw that it's credited to a W. Bolick. Anyone have any idea who s/he is?

Also anybody know of other bands that have recorded this one? I know the Hunger Mountain Boys do a real good job with it on thier newest album.
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cfMC
Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 9:12 pm Reply with quote
Old Crow Joined: 30 Oct 2005 Posts: 412 Location: SF CA USA
This is my favorite of their slower numbers!
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Mr Skjellyfetti
Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 12:02 pm Reply with quote
Raisin' a Ruckus Joined: 27 Oct 2005 Posts: 93 Location: Boone
bob dylan played it and it's on live 1964
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kevinoakhill
Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 6:43 am Reply with quote
Raisin' a Ruckus Joined: 03 Apr 2005 Posts: 59 Location: London
Gillian Welch and David Rawlings have done this song live as well. As for W Bolick, I assume this is Bill Bolick from the Blue Sky Boys, a bluegrass band (set of brothers really, Bill and Earl Bolick) who were best known in the late 50s or early 60s I would guess. I think the song is traditional though, I don't think he wrote it, so would think that it was simply his arrangement of the song which was used.
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BanjoAndy
Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 1:31 pm Reply with quote
Tearin' it Down Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 193 Location: Clifton Park NY
Just found another good version of this tune on The Sidemen album that they sell at the Station Inn.
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chrism
Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 8:59 pm Reply with quote
Lil' Birdie Joined: 29 Nov 2005 Posts: 6 Location: under an oak tree
check out the lonesome sisters with riley baugus, they do a tremendous job with it. also i think the chieftains have played it.
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willierubio
Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 2:22 pm Reply with quote
Lil' Birdie Joined: 13 Mar 2006 Posts: 3 Location: northern california
I was introduced to this song by a Dave Van Ronk record. Joan Baez also did it but in a very British-Isles-type version - how it might have sounded before it hit Appalachia. It's definitely a traditional song rather and whoever it was who got credited for it probably just copyrighted it or arranged it, as per A.P. Carter and all the Carter Family stuff.
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greasy-coat
Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 2:42 pm Reply with quote
Old Crow Joined: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 619
Yea, until this version I'd always seen the tune titled "Silver Dagger".

What about that ole Dave Van Ronk! MAN! Sister Kate?

Well I wish that I could shimmy like my sister Kate
She shakes it just like jelly on a plate
Momma wanted to know last night
"Why was all the fellas treatin Katie so nice"

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Leaf Liar
Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 9:05 pm Reply with quote
Raisin' a Ruckus Joined: 19 Oct 2005 Posts: 133
Yeah, isn't Dave Van Ronk great!
Sister Kate! yeah thats a great old ragtime tune.
Do you have his Jug band album: The Ragtime Jug Stompers...great stuff...not availiable on CD that I know of (unless it's an import). I have the LP...It's Great stuff..


Last edited by Leaf Liar on Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:29 am; edited 1 time in total
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CatieWee
Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 3:27 am Reply with quote
Lil' Birdie Joined: 20 Oct 2005 Posts: 33 Location: Norfolk - UK
cool...now I know who did siter kate originally, as I only just heard it through the dittybops (who are pretty cool!) it means now that I can try and check out some other stuff! yay! You guys never fail to teach me something new! Smile

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greasy-coat
Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 8:34 am Reply with quote
Old Crow Joined: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 619
Leaf, I don't have nor have I heard it. Sounds interesting.

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Leaf Liar
Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:41 am Reply with quote
Raisin' a Ruckus Joined: 19 Oct 2005 Posts: 133
CatieWee wrote:
cool...now I know who did siter kate originally, as I only just heard it through the dittybops (who are pretty cool!) it means now that I can try and check out some other stuff! yay! You guys never fail to teach me something new! Smile


Van Ronk wasn't the first to do Sister Kate...I'm not sure who wrote it, but I have always known Fats Waller's version, which was recorded sometime in the mid-twenties. It's a pretty standard ragtime tune. I'l have to look into the Ditty Bops...never heard of them.
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brodank
Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:42 am Reply with quote
Guest Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 1656
i would be so sure about your references on the origin of that song

I "remember" Ketch talkin about it when they played at The Station Inn 02-08-01 ....it was the 3rd set, 5th song (remember rodge?)

Ketch said he read the history of this song when he was looking into the copyright laws of the song. He stated the the song comes from the 16th century and it is mixed with an american indian ballad. it is the story of the night visit which you did after you went courting.

anyway that is what Ketch said at that time.....you know how he likes to put people on though
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therodge
Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:02 pm Reply with quote
*Law Dog* Joined: 17 Oct 2004 Posts: 6481 Location: Nashville, Tennessee
brodank wrote:
i would be so sure about your references on the origin of that song

I "remember" Ketch talkin about it when they played at The Station Inn 02-08-01 ....it was the 3rd set, 5th song (remember rodge?)


Yea man, Dose were da days! Helluva night... Back when me, you, and ole Pookie used to run the roads. Good times.

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krazykarl
Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 3:07 pm Reply with quote
Old Crow Joined: 12 Dec 2004 Posts: 516
hey bro how's life as a THOUSANDAIRE?!? Mr. Green
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brodank
Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 4:35 pm Reply with quote
Guest Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 1656
krazykarl wrote:
hey bro how's life as a THOUSANDAIRE?!? Mr. Green


A-FREEKING-MAZING Twisted Evil
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greasy-coat
Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 8:45 am Reply with quote
Old Crow Joined: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 619
I don't think anyone's stated the origin of Silver Dagger or Katie Dear, etc. . . just naming versions and players that have done it.

I would like to dig deeper into Sister KAte actually. Leaf let me know what you find.

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grateful
Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:15 pm Reply with quote
Old Crow Joined: 27 Oct 2005 Posts: 473 Location: Sarnia, Ontario Canada
I've seen traditional in a lot of places, but the oldest thing i could find is theirs an instrumental done by the greenwoods on an album called silver dagger, its from 1964, not sure if would be the same instrumental minus the words, could have just been named the same track title, but thats the oldest date i could find with silver dagger in the title, allmusic.com

http://cgi.ebay.com/lp-The-Greenwoods-Folk-Instrumentals-Brunswick-UK_W0QQitemZ150018393854QQcmdZViewItem
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greta_mae
Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 5:12 pm Reply with quote
Lil' Birdie Joined: 18 Jun 2005 Posts: 17 Location: Ann Arbor, Mi / Asheville, NC
from "rural roots of bluegrass" by wayne erbsen:

"the original ballad can be traced back to england in the early 19th century. the first recording was on june 9, 1926, by kelly harrell who called it "oh molly dear, go ask your mother." the callahan brothers' january 3, 1934 recording was so popular that it was released on at least seven different record labels."
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sadler420
Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:40 am Reply with quote
Lil' Birdie Joined: 20 Oct 2005 Posts: 6
It is in an old ozark music songbook my mom has that dates back to the late 1800s.

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GumboStu
Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 8:05 am Reply with quote
*Irish Stew* Joined: 03 Oct 2007 Posts: 3655 Location: Joe's Cornfield
Links to background for Katie Dear.

Mudcat.org citing the Traditional Ballad Index which traces it to 1904

the English/Baez version goes thusly:

SILVER DAGGER

Don't sing lovesongs, you'll wake my mother
She's sleeping here, right by my side
And in her right hand, a silver dagger
She says that I can't be your bride

All men are false, says my mother
They tell you wicked, loving lies
The very next evening, they'll court another
Leave you alone to pine and sigh

My daddy is a handsome devil
He's got a chain five miles long
From every link a heart does dangle
Of some fair maid he's loved and wronged

Go court another tender maiden
And hope that she will be your wife
For I've been warned and I've decided
To sleep alone all of my life

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pittsyltucky
Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 8:45 pm Reply with quote
*Johnny* Joined: 15 Sep 2006 Posts: 4268 Location: Pigg River District, Pittsylvania County, Virginia
The Louvin Brothers' version is pretty much the same as the one on Eutaw -- except Katie Dear's papa has a golden dagger...

here's a link to a "Dead Discography" page that has a ?comprehensive? listing of the songs' recordings -- it does not, however, include the OCMS

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kg
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 6:04 am Reply with quote
*Data Miner* Joined: 30 Jun 2007 Posts: 3427
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYZiNMVpbMM

Joan Baez performing "Silver Dagger." (Just posted today.)

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lbrod
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:00 pm Reply with quote
*Bloodshot Hot Rod* Joined: 02 Jul 2008 Posts: 1358 Location: Beneath Pacheco Pass
The Data Miner continues to dig up gems. That is a very young Joan in this one.
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kg
Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:16 am Reply with quote
*Data Miner* Joined: 30 Jun 2007 Posts: 3427
I'd marry her in a minute!

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frogbotfan
Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:40 am Reply with quote
Raisin' a Ruckus Joined: 16 Jun 2011 Posts: 59 Location: North Carolina
The OCMS version is very close to the arrangement recorded by
Ian and Silvia back in the 1960s. Even the harmonies are about the same.

fbf
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frogbotfan
Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:22 am Reply with quote
Raisin' a Ruckus Joined: 16 Jun 2011 Posts: 59 Location: North Carolina
frogbotfan wrote:
The OCMS version is very close to the arrangement recorded by
Ian and Silvia back in the 1960s. Even the harmonies are about the same.

fbf


Went back and listened to the Ian and Sylvia version. They take it MUCH faster--about 103 beats per minute. The OCMS version is, IMO, just too slow at 73-75 bpm, esp. for a song with some many verses. (I note that the tempo varies somewhat. In playing guitar I've been working with a metronome trying to be more consistent in my tempos. But musicians don't usually play like clockwork (thank goodness) and tempos usually vary a bit over the course of a song.)

There are slight variations in the words as well. Golden dagger vs. silver dagger.

With more instruments to work with, OCMS creates a more interesting sound palette. Fiddle, harp or button accordian.

The bass in the OCMS is called an "upright doghouse bull fiddle". What is this? Just a humorous way of referring to an upright bass?



fbf
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kg
Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:31 am Reply with quote
*Data Miner* Joined: 30 Jun 2007 Posts: 3427
I suspect they are being tongue-in-cheek in naming the double bass, though they could have added bunkhouse to the series and who-knows-what-else!

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