old crow fans ~ View topic - Katie Dear (aka Silver Dagger)

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BanjoAndy

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:40 pm

Tearin' it Down Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 194 Location: Clifton Park NY

Been playing this one alot lately. Nothing better than a good song about love gone wrong. I thought that one of the Louvin Brothers wrote this one but was just looking in the liner notes to a cd and saw that it's credited to a W. Bolick. Anyone have any idea who s/he is?

Also anybody know of other bands that have recorded this one? I know the Hunger Mountain Boys do a real good job with it on thier newest album.

cfMC

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 9:12 pm

Old Crow Joined: 30 Oct 2005 Posts: 412 Location: SF CA USA

This is my favorite of their slower numbers!

Mr Skjellyfetti

Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 12:02 pm

Raisin' a Ruckus Joined: 27 Oct 2005 Posts: 93 Location: Boone

bob dylan played it and it's on live 1964

kevinoakhill

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 6:43 am

Raisin' a Ruckus Joined: 03 Apr 2005 Posts: 59 Location: London

Gillian Welch and David Rawlings have done this song live as well. As for W Bolick, I assume this is Bill Bolick from the Blue Sky Boys, a bluegrass band (set of brothers really, Bill and Earl Bolick) who were best known in the late 50s or early 60s I would guess. I think the song is traditional though, I don't think he wrote it, so would think that it was simply his arrangement of the song which was used.

BanjoAndy

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 1:31 pm

Tearin' it Down Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 194 Location: Clifton Park NY

Just found another good version of this tune on The Sidemen album that they sell at the Station Inn.

chrism

Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 8:59 pm

Lil' Birdie Joined: 29 Nov 2005 Posts: 6 Location: under an oak tree

check out the lonesome sisters with riley baugus, they do a tremendous job with it. also i think the chieftains have played it.

willierubio

Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 2:22 pm

Lil' Birdie Joined: 13 Mar 2006 Posts: 3 Location: northern california

I was introduced to this song by a Dave Van Ronk record. Joan Baez also did it but in a very British-Isles-type version - how it might have sounded before it hit Appalachia. It's definitely a traditional song rather and whoever it was who got credited for it probably just copyrighted it or arranged it, as per A.P. Carter and all the Carter Family stuff.

greasy-coat

Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 2:42 pm

Old Crow Joined: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 619

Yea, until this version I'd always seen the tune titled "Silver Dagger".

What about that ole Dave Van Ronk! MAN! Sister Kate?

Well I wish that I could shimmy like my sister Kate
She shakes it just like jelly on a plate
Momma wanted to know last night
"Why was all the fellas treatin Katie so nice"

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grease out.

Leaf Liar

Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 9:05 pm

Raisin' a Ruckus Joined: 19 Oct 2005 Posts: 133

Yeah, isn't Dave Van Ronk great!
Sister Kate! yeah thats a great old ragtime tune.
Do you have his Jug band album: The Ragtime Jug Stompers...great stuff...not availiable on CD that I know of (unless it's an import). I have the LP...It's Great stuff..

Last edited by Leaf Liar on Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:29 am; edited 1 time in total

CatieWee

Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 3:27 am

Lil' Birdie Joined: 20 Oct 2005 Posts: 33 Location: Norfolk - UK

cool...now I know who did siter kate originally, as I only just heard it through the dittybops (who are pretty cool!) it means now that I can try and check out some other stuff! yay! You guys never fail to teach me something new! Smile

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greasy-coat

Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 8:34 am

Old Crow Joined: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 619

Leaf, I don't have nor have I heard it. Sounds interesting.

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grease out.

Leaf Liar

Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:41 am

Raisin' a Ruckus Joined: 19 Oct 2005 Posts: 133

CatieWee wrote:

Van Ronk wasn't the first to do Sister Kate...I'm not sure who wrote it, but I have always known Fats Waller's version, which was recorded sometime in the mid-twenties. It's a pretty standard ragtime tune. I'l have to look into the Ditty Bops...never heard of them.

brodank

Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:42 am

Guest Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 1656

i would be so sure about your references on the origin of that song

I "remember" Ketch talkin about it when they played at The Station Inn 02-08-01 ....it was the 3rd set, 5th song (remember rodge?)

Ketch said he read the history of this song when he was looking into the copyright laws of the song. He stated the the song comes from the 16th century and it is mixed with an american indian ballad. it is the story of the night visit which you did after you went courting.

anyway that is what Ketch said at that time.....you know how he likes to put people on though

therodge

Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:02 pm

*Law Dog* Joined: 17 Oct 2004 Posts: 6602 Location: Nashville, Tennessee

brodank wrote:

i would be so sure about your references on the origin of that song

I "remember" Ketch talkin about it when they played at The Station Inn 02-08-01 ....it was the 3rd set, 5th song (remember rodge?)

Yea man, Dose were da days! Helluva night... Back when me, you, and ole Pookie used to run the roads. Good times.

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krazykarl

Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 3:07 pm

Old Crow Joined: 12 Dec 2004 Posts: 516

hey bro how's life as a THOUSANDAIRE?!? Mr. Green

brodank

Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 4:35 pm

Guest Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 1656

krazykarl wrote:

hey bro how's life as a THOUSANDAIRE?!? Mr. Green

A-FREEKING-MAZING Twisted Evil

greasy-coat

Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 8:45 am

Old Crow Joined: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 619

I don't think anyone's stated the origin of Silver Dagger or Katie Dear, etc. . . just naming versions and players that have done it.

I would like to dig deeper into Sister KAte actually. Leaf let me know what you find.

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grease out.

grateful

Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:15 pm

Old Crow Joined: 27 Oct 2005 Posts: 473 Location: Sarnia, Ontario Canada

I've seen traditional in a lot of places, but the oldest thing i could find is theirs an instrumental done by the greenwoods on an album called silver dagger, its from 1964, not sure if would be the same instrumental minus the words, could have just been named the same track title, but thats the oldest date i could find with silver dagger in the title, allmusic.com

http://cgi.ebay.com/lp-The-Greenwoods-Folk-Instrumentals-Brunswick-UK_W0QQitemZ150018393854QQcmdZViewItem

greta_mae

Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 5:12 pm

Lil' Birdie Joined: 18 Jun 2005 Posts: 17 Location: Ann Arbor, Mi / Asheville, NC

from "rural roots of bluegrass" by wayne erbsen:

"the original ballad can be traced back to england in the early 19th century. the first recording was on june 9, 1926, by kelly harrell who called it "oh molly dear, go ask your mother." the callahan brothers' january 3, 1934 recording was so popular that it was released on at least seven different record labels."

sadler420

Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:40 am

Lil' Birdie Joined: 20 Oct 2005 Posts: 6

It is in an old ozark music songbook my mom has that dates back to the late 1800s.

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GumboStu

Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 8:05 am

*Irish Stew* Joined: 03 Oct 2007 Posts: 3666 Location: Joe's Cornfield

Links to background for Katie Dear.

Mudcat.org citing the Traditional Ballad Index which traces it to 1904

the English/Baez version goes thusly:

SILVER DAGGER

Don't sing lovesongs, you'll wake my mother
She's sleeping here, right by my side
And in her right hand, a silver dagger
She says that I can't be your bride

All men are false, says my mother
They tell you wicked, loving lies
The very next evening, they'll court another
Leave you alone to pine and sigh

My daddy is a handsome devil
He's got a chain five miles long
From every link a heart does dangle
Of some fair maid he's loved and wronged

Go court another tender maiden
And hope that she will be your wife
For I've been warned and I've decided
To sleep alone all of my life

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Walkin' the line between faith and fear.

pittsyltucky

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 8:45 pm

*Johnny* Joined: 15 Sep 2006 Posts: 4268 Location: Pigg River District, Pittsylvania County, Virginia

The Louvin Brothers' version is pretty much the same as the one on Eutaw -- except Katie Dear's papa has a golden dagger...

here's a link to a "Dead Discography" page that has a ?comprehensive? listing of the songs' recordings -- it does not, however, include the OCMS

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Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 6:04 am

*Data Miner* Joined: 30 Jun 2007 Posts: 3427

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYZiNMVpbMM

Joan Baez performing "Silver Dagger." (Just posted today.)

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Even though you can't expect to defeat the absurdity of the world, you must make that attempt. That's morality, that's religion. That's art. That's life. --Phil Ochs

lbrod

Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:00 pm

*Bloodshot Hot Rod* Joined: 02 Jul 2008 Posts: 1358 Location: Beneath Pacheco Pass

The Data Miner continues to dig up gems. That is a very young Joan in this one.

Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:16 am

*Data Miner* Joined: 30 Jun 2007 Posts: 3427

I'd marry her in a minute!

_________________
Even though you can't expect to defeat the absurdity of the world, you must make that attempt. That's morality, that's religion. That's art. That's life. --Phil Ochs

frogbotfan

Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:40 am

Raisin' a Ruckus Joined: 16 Jun 2011 Posts: 59 Location: North Carolina

The OCMS version is very close to the arrangement recorded by
Ian and Silvia back in the 1960s. Even the harmonies are about the same.

fbf

frogbotfan

Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:22 am

Raisin' a Ruckus Joined: 16 Jun 2011 Posts: 59 Location: North Carolina

frogbotfan wrote:

The OCMS version is very close to the arrangement recorded by
Ian and Silvia back in the 1960s. Even the harmonies are about the same.

fbf

Went back and listened to the Ian and Sylvia version. They take it MUCH faster--about 103 beats per minute. The OCMS version is, IMO, just too slow at 73-75 bpm, esp. for a song with some many verses. (I note that the tempo varies somewhat. In playing guitar I've been working with a metronome trying to be more consistent in my tempos. But musicians don't usually play like clockwork (thank goodness) and tempos usually vary a bit over the course of a song.)

There are slight variations in the words as well. Golden dagger vs. silver dagger.

With more instruments to work with, OCMS creates a more interesting sound palette. Fiddle, harp or button accordian.

The bass in the OCMS is called an "upright doghouse bull fiddle". What is this? Just a humorous way of referring to an upright bass?

fbf

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:31 am

*Data Miner* Joined: 30 Jun 2007 Posts: 3427

I suspect they are being tongue-in-cheek in naming the double bass, though they could have added bunkhouse to the series and who-knows-what-else!

_________________
Even though you can't expect to defeat the absurdity of the world, you must make that attempt. That's morality, that's religion. That's art. That's life. --Phil Ochs

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