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< Music ~ raise a roo-kus? |
frogbotfan |
Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 3:08 pm |
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Raisin' a Ruckus
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 59
Location: North Carolina
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Does anyone know why OCMS pronounces the word "ruckus" as ROO-kus (like poo, coo, woo) instead of RUCK-us (like duck, muck, puck)? Does anyone else pronounce it this way?
They must believe that is correct since it occurs in "Raise a Ruckus Tonight" and in "Good-looking Country Girl". But to me it just seems plainly wrong and grates on my ear each time I hear it. I could much more easily forgive their singing out of tune than mispronouncing a common and folksy word.
Possible explanations. They're doing it to emphasize the phrase. They WANT to annoy us. Acceptable dialect pronuncation found in parts of the country (but nowhere I've ever been).
frogbotfan |
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kg |
Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 4:54 pm |
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*Data Miner*
Joined: 30 Jun 2007
Posts: 3427
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I've always assumed it was a kind of private joke. It's playful and is something like what I would imagine an Old Time band might have done years ago. |
_________________ Even though you can't expect to defeat the absurdity of the world, you must make that attempt. That's morality, that's religion. That's art. That's life. --Phil Ochs |
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lbrod |
Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 5:01 pm |
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*Bloodshot Hot Rod*
Joined: 02 Jul 2008
Posts: 1358
Location: Beneath Pacheco Pass
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Sounds about right to me, kg. I always figured they heard it that way, liked it, and stuck with it. |
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frogbotfan |
Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 5:25 pm |
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Raisin' a Ruckus
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 59
Location: North Carolina
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kg wrote: I've always assumed it was a kind of private joke. It's playful and is something like what I would imagine an Old Time band might have done years ago.
kg,
That's a very interesting theory. Intentional distortion of words. The one example of this that comes to mind is "pro-HY-bition" (for prohibition). I think the joke there is that the singer is pretending to be an uneducated person who doesn't know that it is pronounced "pro-hi-bition". I can't remember the title of the song, but it might be by Woody Guthrie. It works there, but roo-kus doesn't work for me. The boys are not illiterate hillbillies. I find "pro-HY-bition" playful, but roo-kus isn't (to me).
But give me some more examples--maybe it will convince me.
Another theory: Ketch simply got it wrong and either 1) no one else knew any better or 2) no one had the courage to correct him. Alternatively (3), all the folks around him were in on the joke. Please convince me that this is not just ignorance.
Be honest, though: doesn't rook-kus really sound awkward to you? |
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kg |
Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 5:50 pm |
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*Data Miner*
Joined: 30 Jun 2007
Posts: 3427
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One of my favorite moments in contemporary music--remember, I'm old--was when Simon & Garfunkle made fun of the mix-up in people's understanding of just who was the famous Dylan. They say in the song: "Dylan Thomas ... whoever HE was." (I wish I remembered the full exchange.)
Regardless, my point is that both Simon & Garfunkle knew exacty who Dylan Thomas was but they couldn't pass up a wonderful joke, and a commentary on the generation gap.
Ketch is not poorly educated and it seems he has a memory like a sponge. I don't think he would mispronounce a word he's probably heard tons of times in old recordings.
Now, me, I'm just difficult. For instance, I still use "Moslem" instead of "Muslim" as it's the older usage and what I remember. Will I ever get into this century? (I doubt it.) |
_________________ Even though you can't expect to defeat the absurdity of the world, you must make that attempt. That's morality, that's religion. That's art. That's life. --Phil Ochs |
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frogbotfan |
Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 6:02 pm |
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Raisin' a Ruckus
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 59
Location: North Carolina
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kg wrote:
Ketch is not poorly educated and it seems he has a memory like a sponge. I don't think he would mispronounce a word he's probably heard tons of times in old recordings.
It would be possible to check to see if other, older string bands pronounce it roo-kus. I'll look into that when I get the time. I suppose it's possible that in the 1920s, say, it was pronounced differently. Or maybe in Hazard, KY.
I don't know about his memory, but his use of English is sometimes puzzling. |
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kg |
Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 6:06 pm |
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*Data Miner*
Joined: 30 Jun 2007
Posts: 3427
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Here's Hank Williams, Sr. singing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnKOVPXhlnE
You tell HIM that he mispronounced "Bayou"! (Haha!) |
_________________ Even though you can't expect to defeat the absurdity of the world, you must make that attempt. That's morality, that's religion. That's art. That's life. --Phil Ochs |
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The whistle knows my name |
Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 6:22 pm |
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Thousandaire
Joined: 21 Apr 2008
Posts: 1143
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frogbotfan wrote: I don't know about his memory, but his use of English is sometimes puzzling.
I think that for Ketch, language and storytelling (and interviewing, ha) are creative outlets, just like music is. No doubt he could speak with a perfect Midwest accent if he wished, but why would he? It's fun to play around with language. My brother's a linguist and he tells me there is no "correct" English, however much that raises the cockles of English teachers everywhere. Language is a constantly evolving, fluid thing, and today's malapropisms and slang are tomorrow's dogma.
And why "Roo-kus"? Who knows. It's sung by a bunch a hellraisers to busy sheffling their feet to worry 'bout any dern grammer or pernounciatin'.
(I did a quick Amazon search and found at least one example of precedent for "Roo-kus", by Jimmy Dean) |
_________________ "That's the whole principle of the Medicine Show ... you put your trust in the medicine, and you don't get beat up." |
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LucyStag |
Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 6:37 pm |
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*Cruel Lucille*
Joined: 20 Mar 2008
Posts: 1022
Location: Dunno
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"He's so unhip that when you say Dylan, he thinks you're talkin' about Dylan Thomas -- whoever he was -- the man ain't got no culture! But it's alright, Ma, everybody must get stoned."
Off the top of my head! No applause necessary.
(My favorite part, at least in later years was always "I've been Ayn Randed, nearly branded Communist 'cause I'm left-handed.)
kg wrote: One of my favorite moments in contemporary music--remember, I'm old--was when Simon & Garfunkle made fun of the mix-up in people's understanding of just who was the famous Dylan. They say in the song: "Dylan Thomas ... whoever HE was." (I wish I remembered the full exchange.)
Regardless, my point is that both Simon & Garfunkle knew exacty who Dylan Thomas was but they couldn't pass up a wonderful joke, and a commentary on the generation gap.
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_________________ "I don't think Jeffrey Dahmer would rock out to Old Crow." - Mom |
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LucyStag |
Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 6:39 pm |
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*Cruel Lucille*
Joined: 20 Mar 2008
Posts: 1022
Location: Dunno
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Additionally, saying "rook-us" is fun. It also seems easier when rolling of the tongue.
Relax. Language is fun. It's not like they're singing about how they could care less or something. |
_________________ "I don't think Jeffrey Dahmer would rock out to Old Crow." - Mom |
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kg |
Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 6:44 pm |
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*Data Miner*
Joined: 30 Jun 2007
Posts: 3427
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Lucy, brava!
whistle, isn't it one's "hackles" that get raised? It's been quite some time since my cockles got raised.
Also, here's a 1934 example of "roo-kus." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4mp09FGb0g
Language IS fun! |
_________________ Even though you can't expect to defeat the absurdity of the world, you must make that attempt. That's morality, that's religion. That's art. That's life. --Phil Ochs |
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LucyStag |
Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 6:49 pm |
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*Cruel Lucille*
Joined: 20 Mar 2008
Posts: 1022
Location: Dunno
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Merci.
That's some fine juggin'.
And it's definitely hackles that are raised. Cockles (of your heart) are warmed.
A rule of life is if Hank Williams Sr. pronounced something one way, no mortal man may argue. |
_________________ "I don't think Jeffrey Dahmer would rock out to Old Crow." - Mom |
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The whistle knows my name |
Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 6:50 pm |
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Thousandaire
Joined: 21 Apr 2008
Posts: 1143
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kg wrote: whistle, isn't it one's "hackles" that get raised? It's been quite some time since my cockles got raised.
Haha. I already had to edit "hellbenders" to "hellraisers". I must be aquatically minded today. |
_________________ "That's the whole principle of the Medicine Show ... you put your trust in the medicine, and you don't get beat up." |
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lbrod |
Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 6:56 pm |
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*Bloodshot Hot Rod*
Joined: 02 Jul 2008
Posts: 1358
Location: Beneath Pacheco Pass
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Case closed. Memphis Jug Band wins. |
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frogbotfan |
Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 5:31 am |
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Raisin' a Ruckus
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 59
Location: North Carolina
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[quote="frogbotfan"]kg wrote:
It would be possible to check to see if other, older string bands pronounce it roo-kus. I'll look into that when I get the time. I suppose it's possible that in the 1920s, say, it was pronounced differently.
OK, apologies to the group on this. I stand corrected. The situation is more complicated than I realized. One can find various spellings of ruckus, including rookus.
(Although the prestigious Oxford English Dictionary does not allow roo-kus, rhyming with pooh.)
You can find recordings of other bands online using both ruckus and rookus.
I think the answer is that OCMS is just singing it as they heard it somewhere. It's that simple. There is no intention to be playful, provocative, annoying, pseudo-illiterate, ironic, etc. Just a straight-forward pronunciation of the words of the song as other bands have done it. I can't see any legitimate grounds for objecting to roo-kus, although I still don't like it. |
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kg |
Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 5:46 am |
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*Data Miner*
Joined: 30 Jun 2007
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frog, why do you reach this conclusion? Ketch is playful; surely you acknowledge that? Why rule it out? |
_________________ Even though you can't expect to defeat the absurdity of the world, you must make that attempt. That's morality, that's religion. That's art. That's life. --Phil Ochs |
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frogbotfan |
Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 9:34 am |
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Raisin' a Ruckus
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 59
Location: North Carolina
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kg wrote: frog, why do you reach this conclusion? Ketch is playful; surely you acknowledge that? Why rule it out?
I don't see any playfulness in pronouncing the word as "roo-kus" because that seems to be a standard, or at least frequently used pronunciation for string bands. It doesn't depart from the norm; hence, not playful.
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Chigger |
Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 3:04 pm |
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*Lucky No. 7*
Joined: 30 Jul 2008
Posts: 1358
Location: McMinnville, Tennessee
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Alright, once again ya'll are over-analyzing things. I'll tell ya Frogbot- I've lived here in rural TN all my life, and Lucy can attest to my lovely downhome accent. ALL the old folks 'round here pronounce it ROO-CUSS. As a matter of fact, the first time I played this tune for my dad, he's like "Where are those boys from? Sounds like they've been around here before!" I believe it must be a regional thang... |
_________________ I don't know what that is, but I want my picture took with it. |
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frogbotfan |
Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 3:43 pm |
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Raisin' a Ruckus
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 59
Location: North Carolina
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Chigger wrote: Alright, once again ya'll are over-analyzing things. I'll tell ya Frogbot- I've lived here in rural TN all my life, and Lucy can attest to my lovely downhome accent. ALL the old folks 'round here pronounce it ROO-CUSS. As a matter of fact, the first time I played this tune for my dad, he's like "Where are those boys from? Sounds like they've been around here before!" I believe it must be a regional thang...
Chigger,
believe it or not, I'm originally from Middle Tennessee. Truthfully, I can't remember ever having heard the word as I grew up there, but I have to have gotten the pronunciation "ruck-us" somewhere. I will check in with my Tennessee relatives to see how they pronounce it.
I don't think we're over-analyzing things. I've learned a lot through this discussion. I never would have imagined that people pronounced ruckus as roo-cus. It's part of coming to understand the tradition that OCMS stands in.
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The whistle knows my name |
Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 5:31 pm |
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Thousandaire
Joined: 21 Apr 2008
Posts: 1143
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Quote: [...]Perhaps a much earlier shift was taking place 100 years ago in the South, and was fossilized in a word like ruckus. Maybe. However, I would think it has more to do with creating a more inventive and musical sound on the stressed syllable of the word, as others suggested. Schwas are sort of hard to sing in English, because they are radically reduced in speech and have weaker formant frequencies. Sing the line to yourself, and the vowel itself is barely audible. The rhotic (r) goes right into the plosive (k). But it becomes more prominent when raised to [u]. I recorded myself singing each and found the schwa vowel to be reduced by about 25 ms as well, so the [u] is lengthened as well. So it seems to accomplish a number of things. I'm still curious about the fellow from TN who claims people pronounce it that way, and what exactly the origins of it is.[...]
How's that for overanalyzing?
Part of the response I got from my brother after I sent him the thread to take a look at.
I love how much lively discussion there is to be had, and information there is to be gleaned, from such a small piece of a song. |
_________________ "That's the whole principle of the Medicine Show ... you put your trust in the medicine, and you don't get beat up." |
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kg |
Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 6:25 pm |
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*Data Miner*
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I myself pronounce it "raucous." (Wink.) |
_________________ Even though you can't expect to defeat the absurdity of the world, you must make that attempt. That's morality, that's religion. That's art. That's life. --Phil Ochs |
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Chigger |
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 7:14 am |
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*Lucky No. 7*
Joined: 30 Jul 2008
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Location: McMinnville, Tennessee
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The whistle knows my name wrote: [How's that for overanalyzing?
Part of the response I got from my brother after I sent him the thread to take a look at.
I love how much lively discussion there is to be had, and information there is to be gleaned, from such a small piece of a song.
I reckon so! |
_________________ I don't know what that is, but I want my picture took with it. |
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indeedinoditsistern |
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:49 am |
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*Garfunkled*
Joined: 22 Jan 2008
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Location: Hokes Bluff AL.
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im from alabama and i have honestly never noticed the pronunciation variation. around here that would be very very minor. i dont believe its a mistake any more than introducing each other by the wrong names is because they forget each others names. or any more than that they sing "indeed i knowed it sister" is because they dont know good american speak. its just funner (and funnier) that way. |
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kg |
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 10:07 am |
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*Data Miner*
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Where is the "thumbs up" button? |
_________________ Even though you can't expect to defeat the absurdity of the world, you must make that attempt. That's morality, that's religion. That's art. That's life. --Phil Ochs |
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Kitty |
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:26 pm |
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*Mrs. Kitty*
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Location: Durham, NC
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I look at it from a singers point of view.... I still remember my 7th grade choir director telling us it was kree-smas (instead of Christmas) because we didn't want to sound like a bunch of hissing snakes on stage. The are certainly emphasizing the first syllable because of the beat. It is a very gutteral Roo on the downbeat sliding into the Cus. Maybe it is because of this I have never really thought that is sounds wrong, hillbilly, or ignorant. I think it just fits right into the song. |
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indeedinoditsistern |
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:59 pm |
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*Garfunkled*
Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 1524
Location: Hokes Bluff AL.
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i have noticed a lot of times words that they leave the S off of. especially in down home girl. "smells like turnip green" and "tastes like pork and bean"... since i assume they dont use a de-essing method, maybe they just leave some S's out completely. |
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GumboStu |
Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:55 am |
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*Irish Stew*
Joined: 03 Oct 2007
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Location: Joe's Cornfield
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dang i missed a good session here!
Here's big bill broonzy singing rookuss juice blues (spelt rukus) from 1932
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lESzY_A9zew |
_________________ Walkin' the line between faith and fear. |
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missyjay6 |
Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 12:23 pm |
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Old Crow
Joined: 09 Sep 2008
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I HAD always noticed Ketch's pronunciation, but, as a non-native speaker of English, I'd always just thought that maybe that's how it's pronounced in the States... It doesn't annoy me though, and I couldn't imagine these songs sung any different now |
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kg |
Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 12:52 pm |
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*Data Miner*
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missy, what is your mother tongue, may I ask? |
_________________ Even though you can't expect to defeat the absurdity of the world, you must make that attempt. That's morality, that's religion. That's art. That's life. --Phil Ochs |
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missyjay6 |
Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:54 am |
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Old Crow
Joined: 09 Sep 2008
Posts: 453
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kg wrote: missy, what is your mother tongue, may I ask?
Of course you may, kg. I'm Swiss, and the language spoken in the part of Switzerland I'm from is Swiss German, which is kind of similar to the German spoken in Germany (though if you ask Mr.Jay, he'll tell you that it's totally different - he's currently trying to learn both... )
So I learned English at school and then after moving to Scotland, so when it comes to words such as these, I'm never quite sure if it's a US thing or just something I don't know. |
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